• FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netBanned from community
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      1 day ago

      I guess it’s tempting to say stuff like this when you can point to capitalists moving their factories to China to take advantage of cheap costs of production, but you do realize that capital is recoiling in total fear of the monster that their investment in a legitimately socialist country has created, right? If Marxism-Leninism is the ideology of the factory owner, why are American imperialists (who politically answer to and are controlled by the forces of capital) so dead-set on isolating and crushing China? Why are they trying to open 3 fronts around China, separating them from Iran and Russia, as well as creating a proxy army in Taiwan?

      Furthermore, why is it that liberals and fascists can more or less be trusted to reliably communicate what their intentions are (within some margin of error, it’s especially necessary substitute “development” for “colonization” when you listen to them talk about the economy), but when it comes to communists they actually mean the opposite of what they say? Fascists are pretty open about believing that the causes of conflict are the impure rabble that have corrupted the noble races. Liberals are pretty open about believing that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the system of liberal democracy in the West, the problems are with foreign influence (Russiagate, TikTok) and with poor regulation/over regulation, or with too little government influence and too much (depends on which side of the Keynesianism debate a liberal lands). But when communists say, labor must seize the means of production and become the rulers of society, what they really mean is that a small cabal of vanguardists should rule over the workers like dictators? Why is it that the communists are understood as inherently duplicitous?

      edit: Maybe I’m naive to expect a response but I did feel like expanding on my argument about the suspicion placed on communists that isn’t placed in equal measure on fascists, particularly. There is a sense in which fascists are duplicitous, hide behind many layers of masks like the ever-present chan-board irony culture that has actually influenced much of the modern internet. But communists are the opposite! Communists can’t operate behind secrecy and with the kinds of tactics that fascists employ because communists rely on the masses. For communists to be successful, they can’t trick the masses into believing one thing, then implement another; they must educate the masses about what the masses must themselves do, then empower the masses to carry out revolution. I think that Roderic Day does a good job of explaining this phenomenon in his essay Really Existing Fascism, where he even generalizes the instinct to conceal reactionary aims to also apply in equal measure to 21st century liberals:

      According to Marx, solidary forms of social organization that in the past had arisen simply out of need and circumstance, which were equally superseded by need and circumstance (by the efficient oppression of man by man, by slavery), were to make an emancipatory comeback. However, this time around they would be enshrined and protected by masses of conscious workers, workers who know the value of their labour, who demand an economy that they have made, that they know they have made, and that they are capable of remaking ongoingly. [60]

      Nietzsche, if we accept the reading of him as the ultimate fascist philosopher, is easily understood as making an analogous plea to his own reactionary constituency. Where Hannah Arendt and John Seeley try to claim that Western colonization and slavery were “absentminded” pursuits, Nietzsche persuades readers that there is glory in all of it, if done properly, aesthetically, “beyond good and evil.” Where Marx wants the masses to rediscover “primitive communism,” only this time consciously, Nietzsche wants elites to pursue the brutal programme of “primitive accumulation,” only this time consciously and without private shame.

      I say private because, in anti-symmetry with Marx, and fully aware of the danger of letting people know what he’s really about, Nietzsche recommends concealing one’s aims. Thus we come to understand Nietzsche’s warm reception in the liberal West, whose architects turn out to be much better pupils of Nietzsche than the Nazis ever were. George Kennan posits American supremacy as an end in itself, donning a perfectly serviceable mask of liberal pluralism, then goes on to play an important role in planning several decades of “Pax Americana” on the basis of genocidal terrorism. The defining characteristic of the fascist is that they defend their anti-egalitarianism purposefully. The fundamental cleavage between Classical Liberalism and Modern Liberalism is simply the heightened awareness, given the Revolutions and Counter-Revolutions of the 20th century, that it is tactically expedient to wear a mask.

      • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 day ago

        legitimately socialist country has created

        What legitimately socialist country? Are you referring to the one where “Capitalism With Chinese Characteristics” is the law of the land, perhaps?

        so dead-set on isolating and crushing China?

        It’s a complete mystery, I tell you… why would the US want to crush it’s most powerful imperialist rival? You know… the one that helped the US push the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan back in the 80s?

        Furthermore, why is it that liberals and fascists can more or less be trusted to reliably communicate

        Lol!

        Liberals can be trusted when they pretend that liberalism is compatible with democracy? Fascists can be trusted when they pretend to be doing something in the interests of nationalism?

        Again… lol.

        Why is it that the communists are understood as inherently duplicitous?

        History, perhaps?

        because communists rely on the masses

        Oh, yeah… they rely on the “masses,” all right. I guess the Gulags existed to keep them “reliable,” eh?

        they can’t trick the masses into believing one thing, then implement another;

        You mean that exact thing all the (supposedly) “Actually Existing Socialist” countries have been doing since their inception to one degree or the other?

        The fundamental cleavage between Classical Liberalism and Modern Liberalism

        There would only be a point to this if we were discussing liberalism. But it’s not liberals brigading this post, is it now?

        • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netBanned from community
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          1 day ago

          I’ll just ignore your other remarks because they’re reductive and show that you simply didn’t read my comment (as you confirmed in your other reply)

          Liberals can be trusted when they pretend that liberalism is compatible with democracy? Fascists can be trusted when they pretend to be doing something in the interests of nationalism?

          No, those are the contradictions in their ideologies. I know that they’re contradictory and they get spun around in circles when they try to figure out those contradictions. That’s why I’m not a liberal or a fascist. But when you read liberal and fascist texts, they don’t really hide their motivation. The liberal wants the victory of freedom over backwardness and enlightenment over dogmatism. The fascist wants the victory of the will and the ubermensch over the rabble. They don’t really obscure those motivations, they’re clearly spelled out and intelligible. I’m asking you why it is that when communists state exactly what they are motivated by, they are the ones that actually mean the opposite.

          • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 day ago

            when they try to figure out those contradictions.

            Lol! To those with institutionalised power ideology is not a science, tankie. It’s art. It’s not contradiction - it’s merely the paint they work with. You know… institutionalised power? That thing you tankies are only comfortable talking about as long as it’s only liberals and fascists that have it?

            The liberal wants the victory of freedom over backwardness and enlightenment over dogmatism.

            Do we live on the same planet? The one on which I live liberals want whatever it is that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer - and that is pretty much it. And yes… everything they say and do is designed to obfuscate that.

            Perhaps we should investigate why it is that you have such a hard time seeing that - I sincerely doubt it’s purely due to naivety.

            So no, tankie… you are not the only one.

            Does that make you feel better?

            • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netBanned from community
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              1 day ago

              You’re conflating ideologues and pragmatists. John Locke and Stuart Mill vs. Actually Existing Liberalism. Kamala Harris believes in nothing, I’m honestly not concerned about what goes on behind those eyes, but it helps to know what the people who do believe in something that are setting the tone for where the state is headed are talking about. FWIW I think the most relevant people to look into for that end are the neoreactionaries, people like Nick Land and Curtis Yarvin. It seems like Thiel and other billionaires currently setting the course for how America will deal with its waning hegemony are following in that model.

              I’m very familiar with the postmodern condition and how power wields hegemony to make reality what it will, what this means for people that are in danger of being defined out of existence and exterminated. That’s an important thing to understand and criticize.

              Look, obviously institutional political power and the state are things that naturally lend themselves to oppression. “While the State exists there can be no freedom; when there is freedom there will be no State.” Are MLs usually a bit annoyed to argue about this point a lot? Yeah, because when someone who hasn’t read Lenin but is familiar with that quote gets in an argument like this, they start to make a lot of claims like “Lenin just wanted to make his own dictatorship to replace the Tsar” or something similar to that. You start to argue that, actually, it would’ve been best for nothing to have happened because all attempts at seizing power are inherently corrupt and reactionary. I don’t have a lot of patience for that, and I’m not even really an ML personally, I just think that it’s a very privileged position to have that because all states are oppressive the workers ought to just nobly stop having a state at all.

        • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netBanned from community
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          1 day ago

          Did you read my comment, or did you just skim over it looking for phrases to reply to with a dictionary of cheap gotchas?

          • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 day ago

            or did you just skim over it looking

            If you want my undivided attention, tankie, you should have a word with your fellow tankies about the brigade you launched on this post.

            • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netBanned from community
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              1 day ago

              I think it’s pretty funny that you’ve just become openly anti-intellectual, though. There’s now multiple subthreads where you’ve disgracefully taken on the most stereotypical image of an anarchist telling the adults that bed time (good epistemology) is fascist. If you can’t be arsed to read through an argument, what (if not arrogance) makes you feel the need to refute it?

                • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netBanned from community
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                  1 day ago

                  What’s a good argument, then? Citing Orwell and Arendt? Fangirling over slave-owning Greek lesbians on Tumblr? What’s the rhetorical magnum opus of the online-anarchist cultural milieu?

                  • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    1 day ago

                    Citing Orwell and Arendt?

                    I know you tankies are sore at Orwell for calling out your realpoliticking horseshit… but what is your problem with Arendt now?