free_casc [comrade/them]

For you true, for me somewhat true. Do you live in the region? If you talk to the average IRL person, they are far less informed about the history than you and I are (go figure), and they don’t read it that way.

Those are absolutely way cooler and more meaningful, if I had an actual platform it would be the first order of business to pick one of these.

Actually, it would be the second order of business after establishing relationships with indigenous leadership. Demographics mean that a socialist PNW movement will be very white, and we can’t just appropriate shit and move on without the underlying relationship.

Might change my avatar to something like this, but at the same time I like stirring the controversy (gently) and getting the whole discussion out there. This isn’t the first time someone has brought up the region’s white nationalist background (I brought it up myself in the first post on this account!), and every discussion is an educational opportunity for the observer.

Maybe I’ll make another account with a cool fish flag avi that always calls out this account from the left as a bit.

In a conversation with people who are left of liberal, it offers an easy off ramp from the discussion being contained by the “US American” framework. It offers them to consider “the US is shit, and anything good (universal healthcare, student loan forgiveness to start) goes to Washington DC to die, what i lived in a country worth fighting for?”.

Immediate follow up would be: “remember though in an actual civil war situation we (anyone left of Reagan) all fucking die, so we aren’t actually doing this” also “I’m down to rework the flag, but I’m glad we’re having this conversation instead of arguing about voting for Kamala”.

Remember that this is DemSoc shit, so there’s plenty to argue and discuss from the left. I already know this because I am left of being a demsoc as well.

Once you put a a bunch of distance from the American framework, it’s much easier to talk about historical revolutions and modern economic models that actually managed to achieve something.

I think Hexbear is decent at theory and material analysis, but this community has always been severely lacking at propaganda and ideological warfare. Materialism is more important and interesting anyway, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for working within the idealist framework. It doesn’t drive history, but it exists and steers it,especially in liberal settler states.

Speaking of the liberal, settler, imperial core, I think we need to keep in mind that true revolutionary socialism will not be born and bred here. A more material outlook prompts us to weaken the empire and give our comrades in the global south an opportunity to liberate themselves. What better way to weaken the empire than balkanization?(Even to a small extent) We joke about it all the time (or is it serious? Idk sometimes with this site).

Then why not start by just not using it?

I’m curious if you live in the region yourself. It would make more sense if you do.

It’s like trying to reclaim the swastika or confederate flag.

Not correct at all, it’s much more similar to reclaiming the US flag. I know that’s not popular with this community either, and it’s something that I think is extremely cringe as well (seeing liberals carry it around and such), but it also isn’t the same as a swastika. Nobody perceives it that way besides a dozen kkk boomers out in baker city. Local urbanites don’t have a single clue about it (which is not a good thing).

Furthermore, the flag has never represented an actual movement or country in the way of Nazi Germany or the CSA. It’s known as a “flag people fly at soccer games” unless you dig through Wikipedia or you live in “greater Idaho”. It actually is eligible to be reappropriated, in this case.

Have you actually consulted with indigenous people on this matter?

No because this isn’t a movement, it’s a rhetorical tool as far as I’m concerned. If someone were to approach me and try and make it real, I’d immediately adopt your perspective and continue the discussion form there.

If tomorrow I were made the chair of the Cascadia Workers’ Party in some alternate universe, it would of course be my responsibility to approach indigenous leadership, develop relationships, and offer them representation.

It simply doesn’t, that’s not what pretty much anyone would understand it to be.

Not exactly off topic comrade, and important to discuss. I’ve noted most of my thoughts here, maybe start with the last couple sections, as they relate to your post: https://hexbear.net/comment/5576727

My use of “Cascadia” imagery has a lot more to do with appropriating this:

The Doug Flag as it is known is a misguided attempt by some white lib with a fundamental misunderstanding of anti-racism and very suspiciously chose the exact colors of the explicitly white supremacist flag that preceded it.

Than the white nationalism part ofc.

As other indigenous comrades put it, the movement is at best tone def and has done very little to seek indigenous input and seems to be more a reorganization of colonial power than a rejection of it, and at worst it is used by cryptofascists to try to reignite the white separatist movement. If

Agree, all valid. I personally have strong anti-colonial convictions and a strong inclination toward indigenous liberation. I spend more time talking about these topics than I do talking about “Cascadia” itself. To me, I am using it as an offramp from Americanism and an onramp to democratic socialism (something, something. Allende), anti- colonialism (the US can’t help themselves but exploit, this makes it both dangerous and unethical to take part in the imperial system), and indigenous rights (“a key part of a ‘Cascadia culture’, were it to exist, would be respect for indigenous people and stewardship of the environment, wouldn’t it?”).

I actually think that all these topics are super important to our region, I’m tired of it always being “Trump’s bullshit of the day” and :vote:ing. In a way I’m happy that there is some entanglement with the white nationalist history because it offers an opportunity to discuss!

You may disagree with the approach, but I hope you at least see where I’m coming from. Also I’d love to toss out the flag and the name and start over with the “People’s Federated Socialist Republic of the Salish lands”, but people see the Doug flag at soccer games and whatever so it’s an easier starting point.

As a Democratic socialist account my hope is that the US can transition to democratic socialism (or more likely, social democracy) in a managedd way. There will be no revolution here, and socialism will arrive last at the imposition of a socialist global order.

Agree, although in the “among comrades” discussion we should understand that the free trade that comes from open internal borders is what keeps most state and local economies functioning. Disrupting this could cause issues, but that’s not to say that it shouldn’t happen and can’t be managed if it did happen.

True, and I would agree the nuclear weapons aspect should be considered carefully (among comrades in a hypothetical situation where something is actually happening). I don’t think “dollar hegemony” is going to come up for a normie-lib, but if it does, it at least advances the conversation outside of electoralism and “trump bad” and gives you something to work with.

This is the question that normie-liberals need to face: “If Trump is dismantling the US government, what’s the point of even participating in all this shit anyway?”. It may be the first time they’re actually thinking “outside the box” ever, since there isn’t any canned reply that they’ve been fed by the media or other sources (yet).

Among comrades I think it provokes an interesting and nuanced discussion about what the consequences of that sort of move would be and what form it should or could take. For the normie-liberals (not or lightly online, no formal power) it’s just going to have to be beaten over their heads until they start to get that the existence of the US is holding them back from everything they want and more.

As for “what is to be done?” couldn’t say cause all paths toward actual secession lead to civil war, and the left loses that 100/100 times without decades of preparation. However, any amount of internal disunity toward the US stretches the empire thinner and gives more room for the global south to make some moves.

This is literally my whole bit, Canadians get it together, you have a head start on us.

Depends on a lot of things, obviously this person is revealing their ignorance to you in an obvious way. You know more than them.

As far as how to respond and communicate any further, many questions come to mind:

• Is this a person you are obligated to have a continued relationship with?
• is this a person who you want to have a continued relationship with?
• Is there a power dynamic on your relationship with this person?
• Do you think they would be hostile if any particular topics were to come up?
• Does this person have a any position of implicit or explicit social or political power/influence?

These answers would all influence my response, but I don’t particularly enjoy engaging with people who’s understanding of the world is so misaligned from mine that I usually just move on as quickly as possible.

No, I currently work with my union who has a lot of DSA-adjacent type stuff going on. Most of this is just online and IRL yapping, just to get the juices flowing in people who have a left-of-liberal mindset.

I might be down to have more specific conversations with people who have an established account on here (like you), so DM if you’d like to carry that on a bit.

I don’t think revolution will happen in the imperial core, but we can fight for social democracy and force the federal government to shut it down. It would be a great experience for liberals to see their electoral movement get shut down on their faces. Those are the circumstances under which people will shift left into joining an outright socialist org (perhaps a party?) that has a regional focus. I hope to be in the mix when that happens ofc (maybe I’ll see you there??)

Let’s do it!

Cause we are still chock fucking full of liberals who are barely ready to fight for fucking anything (including basic social democratic reforms that they already believe in). Theyre coming around to “the illegitimate colonizers of the United States government have nothing to offer you and never will, so we might as well focus on the illegitimate colonizer state governments which at least offer a smaller playing field for us to actually do a couple things to stabilize ourselves with some succdem shit” type of thinking.

If we can rouse some real grassroots direct democratic support for some succdem shit, then the US will be forced to crush it and heighten internal tensions, or let it slide and the West coast might actually start to believe a better future is possible.

The average west coaster has views to the left of the Democratic party at both the state and national levels. Objective right now is to make that apparent, and jdpon don is doing a lot to help that along. “Hey CA! if the feds are actually going to cut all of your federal funding, why TF are you sending them 30% to get nothing in return?”

I already know that there are Cascadia state agencies that are preparing to reject the Trump admin funding that comes loaded with “you must cooperate with ICE” and “you must hollow out your DEI completely” strings attached. Looking forward to the US weakening its own taxation authority, cause it releases some obvious fucking questions, even for liberals! MSM will have a very challenging time trying to spin that narrative if it takes root among “progressive liberals”.

Anyway, the ingredients are there, we just need to turn up the stove this summer and get it simmering. If Dems lose in 28, “West coast independence” will be a viewpoint at the fringes of the mainstream in 2030. Won’t be any more controversial that “yeah I’m a Bernie fan, off if you think it’s ‘unrealistic’ or whatever”.

More and more people are saying it!

This is all factually correct, but I hope Californian comrades are talking to their local liberals about this stuff. “Normie” types don’t like what’s going on and are down to think about what life would look like without Trump in the picture.

“Yeah if they cut all federal funding, then why are we paying ~30% as a state to the US? Let’s just stop, what’s the worst that could happen?”

This has never been in the media before so you can finally kick of an actual political conversation that has very few existing brainworms.

Maybe in a decade “West coast secessionist” viewpoints have a space in the conversation, although at the fringe of the mainstream (thinking along the lines of “alt-right”). This sort of internal tension is bad for the empire and good for the global south. I think socialists should be advocating for it. We know that the Democratic voter base, and even many Republican voters are to the left of the Democratic Party on a lot of social issues. Weakening the DNC means we could actually get some socdem shit done while things are unstable and on decline.

Ideals don’t drive the wheels of history, but they do steer them. As you said, this is not something that is practical materially, but on the ideological battlefield, we need to wield it as a rallying point for something to the left of neoliberalism. If everything goes well, you’d probably get the West coast to be another Canada tbh. Maybe would even make sense to annex in to Canada?