I never said anything about “supporting” Biden or Harris. I am very well aware of the genocide argument and that these are the ghouls here.
Just the other day, someone argued with me that Trump’s accelerationism would somehow be beneficial to the left for recruitment, because people/libs are easier to be radicalized under Trump while they love to brunch under Democrats.
Yes, for a prepared left that has the capacity to take advantage of the situation. But the American left is NOT prepared. They need time to organize. And 4 years is 4 years.
Also, if your strategy to rally people to your cause relies on minorities paying the price (and perhaps even with their lives), then you have a serious problem.
I never said anything about “supporting” Biden or Harris.
Telling people to vote for someone is like the dictionary definition of support. I legitimately don’t understand what y’all think “support” means. Wanting to suck them off? Treating everything they say as gospel? Thinking they’ll go to heaven in the afterlife?
I genuinely don’t know, because in my book, supporting someone is when you provide them with, you know, support. For example, in the form of a vote or in the form of trying to convince others to vote for them.
What you described is a legitimate approach - it’s the Trotskyists view of the world.
The Trots (Chen Duxiu faction) welcomed and encouraged the Imperial Japanese invasion because they believed that the upheaval and destruction caused by the Japanese army will provoke the masses to rise up and overthrow the bourgeois Nationalist government.
This earned them the “Han traitor” moniker (汉奸) by Mao, perhaps the worst insult you can ever receive from him.
Despite the Nationalists murdering hundreds of thousands of communists just the years prior, Mao decided that a united front with the Nationalists against the Japanese invaders was still the correct path to take. And guess what? It turned out to be beneficial for the Communist Party, who would eventually overthrow the Nationalists during the Liberation War despite being massively outnumbered and outgunned.
This is why Mao is so revered in China, despite his mistakes and flaws. His ability to understand the gravity of the situation and see the entire picture in a grand scheme of world events remain unparalleled to this day.
If the Trots have had their way, China would have succumbed and turned into a Japanese colony. It’s very important to realize that if things had taken just a slightly different turn, the communists would not have won in China.
No one is welcoming this fascist train. Like, I understand your disdain for the American left but the American left is not cheering this on in the hopes of some glorious revolution.
What we are doing is sharpening our knives as best we can because this is going to get hot fast.
I welcome the democrats to act as your nationalists and actually put some metal into the fight. At which point, I will side with them.
The reason that there was an alliance to be formed at all was that the communists existed as their own, separate political party.
The relationship between Mao and the nationalists, and the lessons we can take from it, are more complex than this “always capitulate to the lesser evil” nonsense. There were several times when the two sides formed a united front and several times that such agreements fell apart or were betrayed. If the lesson from Mao is simply capitulation to the lesser evil, Mao would have just joined the KMT and abandoned any sort of radical positions to that might have caused contention.
Of course, accelerationism is stupid nonsense as it always has been.
Edit to add a thought: the communists at that time had just endured the long march, and the leadership was tested and battle-hardened. When they said “revolution later” they meant “revolution later.” In contrast, in Europe, there were a bunch of nominally socialist parties and when they said “revolution later,” they meant, “revolution never,” because they were full of opportunists. Imagine if the SDP in Germany was like, “Well, it finally happened, the conditions are right for revolution so we’re doing a revolution now.” No, if you want a temporary alliance with the Democrats, it needs to be actually temporary, with a clearly set objective and end conditions. Otherwise it’s just liberalism with extra steps.
Just the other day, someone argued with me that Trump’s accelerationism would somehow be beneficial to the left for recruitment, because people/libs are easier to be radicalized under Trump while they love to brunch under Democrats.
It’s not wrong to say that this acceleration from the government creates new opportunities for leftist organizing. That’s not saying Trump is good, it’s just an assessment of the situation. And I see it borne out all the time, the interest in has grown by an order of magnitude since his election. We have to deal with the ups and downs of where we’re at right now.
Yeah I reject the idea that 4 years of Biden would give the left “time to organize,” democrats are counter revolutionary and possible organizing subjects tune out out of necessity/go back to brunch once blue is back in office. 2020 had simultaneous crises and they were mollified by liberal cooptation. Families separated, kids in cages, police murder, genocide in Palestine, nobody flocked to those banners because Biden was in charge. Is this accelerationism? It seems like an evaluation of reality
I’m not even making a comparative Dems vs Reps claim and I’m certainly not saying we wanted Trump so that we could do accelerationism. I’m hust saying that under Trump, popular discontent is substantially heightened, classs consciousness is on the rise, and radical organizing is quickly getting bigger and stronger. Things are accelerating in both repression and resistance. Being prepared starts with having that understanding.
And not a done deal, either! This is an opportunity, but it’s a narrow one that the movement could totally fumble or that maybe never fully materializes. But the chance is there and we have to act on it. Moralizing about what might have been under Kamala, or maybe we could be more prepared, or whatever - irrelevant. We are Marxists. We work from the real material conditions that currently exist.
4 years to prepare? Not even 400 years are enough with objectives like radicalizing liberals. The working class needs to self-organize and link up, radicalizing liberals usually means convincing middle class Democrat voters to larp as socdems. Maybe they’ll even start a party to wreck working class organizing and end up endorsing the Dems anyway in the next elections. And as soon as the “imminent threat to democracy” is gone these radicalized liberals who never stopped being property owners, small time bosses etc will go straight back to business as usual and try their best to be good capitalist career politicians.
I think it is entirely reasonable to think that a Democratic administration would not be escalating this hard, this quickly. This is insane and terrifying on a level beyond anything the government has ever done with trans people, in recent memory.
Yeah, they were still gonna shift into a transphobic direction - but that would’ve taken a much longer time, and personally I value even months before oppression escalates, and I honestly don’t know if they would’ve ever gone this far. I think at worst it would’ve ended up like Labour transphobia in the UK, this is beyond even that by a significant margin and presents a severe material threat to every trans person in the country.
Maybe it’ll be better that it escalates this much this fast - maybe it’ll be too much too soon and they’re forced to back off on trans issues, whereas with the Democrats maybe it could’ve been slipped through gradually as ‘normal’ Maybe. That’s not a certainty, I can’t blame anyone for wanting fascistic oppression to be enacted slower. Especially being one of their first targets, I am savoring every single day without some kind of escalation.
Your mistake continues to be believing Biden would have slowed down anything in this regard.
Also you can take your L for supporting the person who started the genocide if that makes you feel better about being “correct”.
I never said anything about “supporting” Biden or Harris. I am very well aware of the genocide argument and that these are the ghouls here.
Just the other day, someone argued with me that Trump’s accelerationism would somehow be beneficial to the left for recruitment, because people/libs are easier to be radicalized under Trump while they love to brunch under Democrats.
Yes, for a prepared left that has the capacity to take advantage of the situation. But the American left is NOT prepared. They need time to organize. And 4 years is 4 years.
Also, if your strategy to rally people to your cause relies on minorities paying the price (and perhaps even with their lives), then you have a serious problem.
Telling people to vote for someone is like the dictionary definition of support. I legitimately don’t understand what y’all think “support” means. Wanting to suck them off? Treating everything they say as gospel? Thinking they’ll go to heaven in the afterlife?
I genuinely don’t know, because in my book, supporting someone is when you provide them with, you know, support. For example, in the form of a vote or in the form of trying to convince others to vote for them.
What you described is a legitimate approach - it’s the Trotskyists view of the world.
The Trots (Chen Duxiu faction) welcomed and encouraged the Imperial Japanese invasion because they believed that the upheaval and destruction caused by the Japanese army will provoke the masses to rise up and overthrow the bourgeois Nationalist government.
This earned them the “Han traitor” moniker (汉奸) by Mao, perhaps the worst insult you can ever receive from him.
Despite the Nationalists murdering hundreds of thousands of communists just the years prior, Mao decided that a united front with the Nationalists against the Japanese invaders was still the correct path to take. And guess what? It turned out to be beneficial for the Communist Party, who would eventually overthrow the Nationalists during the Liberation War despite being massively outnumbered and outgunned.
This is why Mao is so revered in China, despite his mistakes and flaws. His ability to understand the gravity of the situation and see the entire picture in a grand scheme of world events remain unparalleled to this day.
If the Trots have had their way, China would have succumbed and turned into a Japanese colony. It’s very important to realize that if things had taken just a slightly different turn, the communists would not have won in China.
No one is welcoming this fascist train. Like, I understand your disdain for the American left but the American left is not cheering this on in the hopes of some glorious revolution.
What we are doing is sharpening our knives as best we can because this is going to get hot fast.
I welcome the democrats to act as your nationalists and actually put some metal into the fight. At which point, I will side with them.
The reason that there was an alliance to be formed at all was that the communists existed as their own, separate political party.
The relationship between Mao and the nationalists, and the lessons we can take from it, are more complex than this “always capitulate to the lesser evil” nonsense. There were several times when the two sides formed a united front and several times that such agreements fell apart or were betrayed. If the lesson from Mao is simply capitulation to the lesser evil, Mao would have just joined the KMT and abandoned any sort of radical positions to that might have caused contention.
Of course, accelerationism is stupid nonsense as it always has been.
Edit to add a thought: the communists at that time had just endured the long march, and the leadership was tested and battle-hardened. When they said “revolution later” they meant “revolution later.” In contrast, in Europe, there were a bunch of nominally socialist parties and when they said “revolution later,” they meant, “revolution never,” because they were full of opportunists. Imagine if the SDP in Germany was like, “Well, it finally happened, the conditions are right for revolution so we’re doing a revolution now.” No, if you want a temporary alliance with the Democrats, it needs to be actually temporary, with a clearly set objective and end conditions. Otherwise it’s just liberalism with extra steps.
It’s not wrong to say that this acceleration from the government creates new opportunities for leftist organizing. That’s not saying Trump is good, it’s just an assessment of the situation. And I see it borne out all the time, the interest in
has grown by an order of magnitude since his election. We have to deal with the ups and downs of where we’re at right now.
Yeah I reject the idea that 4 years of Biden would give the left “time to organize,” democrats are counter revolutionary and possible organizing subjects tune out out of necessity/go back to brunch once blue is back in office. 2020 had simultaneous crises and they were mollified by liberal cooptation. Families separated, kids in cages, police murder, genocide in Palestine, nobody flocked to those banners because Biden was in charge. Is this accelerationism? It seems like an evaluation of reality
I’m not even making a comparative Dems vs Reps claim and I’m certainly not saying we wanted Trump so that we could do accelerationism. I’m hust saying that under Trump, popular discontent is substantially heightened, classs consciousness is on the rise, and radical organizing is quickly getting bigger and stronger. Things are accelerating in both repression and resistance. Being prepared starts with having that understanding.
Yeah nobody here was arguing Trump would be better, just that it was an inevitability and an opportunity
And not a done deal, either! This is an opportunity, but it’s a narrow one that the movement could totally fumble or that maybe never fully materializes. But the chance is there and we have to act on it. Moralizing about what might have been under Kamala, or maybe we could be more prepared, or whatever - irrelevant. We are Marxists. We work from the real material conditions that currently exist.
4 years to prepare? Not even 400 years are enough with objectives like radicalizing liberals. The working class needs to self-organize and link up, radicalizing liberals usually means convincing middle class Democrat voters to larp as socdems. Maybe they’ll even start a party to wreck working class organizing and end up endorsing the Dems anyway in the next elections. And as soon as the “imminent threat to democracy” is gone these radicalized liberals who never stopped being property owners, small time bosses etc will go straight back to business as usual and try their best to be good capitalist career politicians.
It’s already been beneficial for recruitment. 40 rifle holders at the last range day.
I think it is entirely reasonable to think that a Democratic administration would not be escalating this hard, this quickly. This is insane and terrifying on a level beyond anything the government has ever done with trans people, in recent memory.
Yeah, they were still gonna shift into a transphobic direction - but that would’ve taken a much longer time, and personally I value even months before oppression escalates, and I honestly don’t know if they would’ve ever gone this far. I think at worst it would’ve ended up like Labour transphobia in the UK, this is beyond even that by a significant margin and presents a severe material threat to every trans person in the country.
Maybe it’ll be better that it escalates this much this fast - maybe it’ll be too much too soon and they’re forced to back off on trans issues, whereas with the Democrats maybe it could’ve been slipped through gradually as ‘normal’ Maybe. That’s not a certainty, I can’t blame anyone for wanting fascistic oppression to be enacted slower. Especially being one of their first targets, I am savoring every single day without some kind of escalation.