They both have a bit in common. They’re both communist Asian states that the US went to war with during the Cold War and did not win. But the messaging regarding the two states is a lot different. DPRK is treated like the worst dictatorship ever, that kills you and your family for even thinking that the Kims are less than gods, whilst also starving. But Vietnam, they say… nothing.
Why isn’t Vietnam demonized like DPRK?
I’m really new to theory but have been trying to dig deeper, and know a lot of Maoists. As I learn more from Lenin and Mao, I’m excited to engage with them about their stance on that. Especially because I’m picking up on a lot of things in “On Contradiction” that seem to…Contradict some of those more rigid beliefs that are attributed to Maoists.
I really don’t understand the Maoist hate except that people only perpetuate a stereotypical view of them because of Avakian or whatever, and inflammatory Maoists on the internet.
Here’s my (not super well read, mostly based off of discussions with comrades) take:
I think @ColombianLenin was calling Maoists out particularly over their criticisms of China, which, given the context, seems like a relevant point of discussion.
I’m aware of that, most folks on here really respect Mao but aren’t Maoist. (I recognize you are probably just helping with a distinction, not trying to be snarky)
I often wonder about this. I know that there was like a whole book that someone from Prolewiki translated or something about Shining Path that somehow proved that they were/are a CIA op? I too am not well read on this, but the Maoists I’ve briefly talked to about this make the case that a lot of the talking points lobbed at Shining Path are ones that anti-communists lob at all socialist revolutions, and so that would be a reason to be critical of the sweeping assumption that Shining Path = bad. Also that it is very possible that Gonzalo was taken out of context with everyone’s favorite way to characterize him as a terrorist (boiling babies). Like that particular incident seems to be the reason why people completely condemn them, I never see more in depth comments about that besides what I pointed out above. Again, I’m not very well read/researched on this matter and it is one that I feel sus about until I can read more and draw my own conclusions. But I don’t think it is wrong to converse about it if people are indeed misinformed.
The whole China debate is something I also struggle with. Like, China is a superpower at this point, why would they feel compelled to trade with the Phillipines? Why did they, for a time, side with Cambodia (iirc). I cannot think of reasons why China could not make a more moral choice in these instances. At the same time, I have heard compelling arguments that justify China’s cobalt mines in terms of there being more reciprocal benefit as opposed to colonial extraction, and it does seem to operate differently from other forms of colonialism. So they do seem to operate in a unique capacity compared to the US. Gotta readddd.
I need to ask my comrades more about their stances on AES’s. I believe they do try to avoid sectarianism. Always can improve on that front, but I just feel like a lot of sweeping generalizations are made about Maoists that may be innaccurate characterizations. Or maybe the ones I know are just less hardcore
I mean, there’s not much context that you can give “boiling babies” to justify it, and then when you look at the context it was basically “disciplinary terrorism” because some people in a village collaborated with enemies of the Shining Path. Notably, babies did not collaborate with those enemies and it was basically a form of collective punishment by brutal torture and death (adults were also boiled alive, in somewhat larger numbers).
I personally would not trust any Gonzalite.
I also view the PRC as revisionist and think that explains a lot of their decisions, though obviously they first started playing friendly with the US under Mao. They are still a historically progressive force (as the revisionist USSR also was), but if we imagined that they were internationalists then we would need to conclude that they are pathologically averse to conflict. I think the Philippines is probably one of the easier to explain examples because the PRC really does not want the government there to side hard with the US and turn their country into another fleet of unsinkable aircraft carriers like China already needs to deal with with its neighbors in East Asia. That and it would hurt the standing and credibility it has cultivated as “socialist country that does not export revolution” to back the guerillas to try to have influence over the Philippines that way.
I don’t talk about this view because it doesn’t seem that useful to me to try to move the mountain of Hexbear’s consensus, even though I have repeatedly run into one of the more annoying problems caused by this view of China, which is that people then use China’s revisionist stance as a justification to defend other revisionism, e.g. within the DPRK
User xiaohongshu has written quite a lot on the revisionism of the PRC, so that’s a good place to read more about it that is written in a register and frame of reference that is relatively more familiar to users of this instance.
First of all, yes you are absolutely correct and there is absolutely no way that I would ever consider that okay under any circumstance. Not for anyone at all. Just wanna make that EXTREMELY clear lol. Also I’m not a Gonzaloite and here I am just kinda playing devil’s advocate a bit because now I’ve been introduced to both sides of the argument about Shining Path and am curious about it, but still largely have reservations about Shining Path. And I think in my mind I probably need to remember the distinction between MLMs and MLMpMs because I would guess not all Maoists believe in gonzalo thought. (too many fuckin acronyms in communism)
I think what my comrade was getting at was that people will argue that Gonzalo approved of those acts because of his testimony while on trial, and that that particular testimony was misinterpreted, or that the documents may have been falsified or something like that. I don’t think my comrade was debating the validity of the massacre but that the members of the party that did it went rogue or something. I wouldn’t be surprised if a government would fabricate documents to imprison him, or any other communist insurgent. There are still people who believe that Mao intentionally starved five trillion people and that he made them eat rocks (yes, I have heard that one) and cannabalize eachother, so recognizing that is what makes me question the majority opinion on Shining Path.
I appreciate you sharing your perspective on China, how people totally glaze China here is kind of off-putting to me. I think there was a debate a while back about China-Israel relations and people seemed to bend over backwards to justify their continued relations in the midst of the Palestinian genocide. So instinctively I think your position is correct. And you allow for nuance, I feel like a lot of people kinda fall into black or white thinking sometimes.
Yeah I figured, but just in case I wanted to make the clarification
Yeah this is basically what I meant when I said I wasn’t well read enough on it.
I think the sibling comment from purpleworm has a good explanation for the Philippines. China seems to be trying very hard to not export revolution, for better or worse, and appear “politically neutral” at a world stage. I think this is something I’m personally disappointed in, but it also seems they’re playing the long game and that the world, and the future possibility of leftist movements, would be much worse off if China were to cease to exist.
As for Cambodia, are you referring to China backing the Khmer Rouge (and in particular, against the Communist Party of Vietnam)? IIRC that was still under Mao, and I think a lot of the poor foreign policy decisions of that time are a direct result of the Sino-Soviet Split, which ended up manifesting in very weird ways (the US and Mao’s China both backing the Khmer Rouge against Vietnam, which was backed by the Soviets, for example).
Would you happen to have any resources about the cobalt mines? I would like to read more about that if you have it handy, plus it would be nice to keep it in my back pocket.
Hey I got busy over the past couple of days but wanted to come back to this
That is a valid point, for now at least. No matter the objectives, weakening the US empire is a good thing. But at this point I guess we can’t really predict whether or not they will save the world and usher in a socialist utopia if they establish themselves as the primary global superpower, or if they’ll just end up perpetuating imperialist projects but maybe they are a little nicer to the indigenous people that they are extracting resources from.
As for the Cambodia thing you are right and that would be better question for my Maoist comrades lol
Here are some links about mining in Africa that I just found, I don’t remember what I read specifically when I learned about it
South China Morning Post - Science drives China’s Westward expansion in Africa
The Hindu - Africa is challenging China’s mining hegemony
EE Times - China’s Footprint Across Africa Beyond the DRC
Thanks comrade!
A VERY short TL;DR is:
In other words, refer to
I guess in my experience with Maoists (not Trots, everyone hates Trots except other Trots) is that they try to avoid sectarianism which is why I don’t understand the stereotypes lobbed around. Or even if they find China to be revisionist, for example, I think that there is more of a nuanced explanation there instead of just “China is not Maoist therefore bad!!”. Which is kinda how I see Maoists characterized here and elsewhere which I just find uncharitable. But perhaps I’m wrong and it is the vast majority of Maoists that are extreme vs the ones I know
The us promoted Trotskyism and Maoism during the cold war as alternatives to “classical” ML thought, that should tell you how “docile” the empire views it. Many Maoists remain very based good comrades, but as a whole they havent been successful in a while (see India, Nepal & Philippines).
Oooo can you think of any articles or documents about the Maoist psyop stuff? That’s very interesting.
To push back a bit for funsies, I wonder how many explicitly Marxist-Leninist parties have succeeded in revolution since the 70s? I think thats when “Maoism” in name first started to take shape, right? Pretty sure Vietnam and Laos were post-1970, and the Zapatistas but I think their ideological line is explicitly indigenous even if inspired partly by communism/anarchism. Do Venezuela and Bolivia count? I guess my point is, while they havent been successful in deposing their current governments, the ideology is much newer than ML, and some of the currently existing parties are newer still, having been established in the early and mid 2000’s, some are perhaps even newer. Like I think the Nepalese Maoist party was formed in 2012. Just think those things are important to consider as well as maybe how much aid and influence the US might provide some of those countries
Not a lot because the main ML country became revisionist and then fell which caused ML to be a dead branch essentially. And given the few actually succeeding revolutions at all - its basically just (barely) Burkina Faso, Madagascar, Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambique, Benin, Grenada, and Zimbabwe.
Through the Congress for Cultural Freedom. Also the Nouvelle Philosophie & Foucault. More here, Here, Straight from the source, From page 96 or so, may not entirely be relevant to your question, but a good poignant read entirely - also from the empire’s lips
Jk. Damn I need to look into those countries, Africa holding it down. Thanks for the links comrade, I appreciate it