This leaves out the Bella Ciao piece of evidence. Something that I can ONLY say would point to him either falling into far left circles or, as some others mentioned, the Groyper attempt to coopt the song.
I don’t think you can leave that out. It’s essential evidence.
There have been many covers of it in the last 15 years.
I read an article (I can’t find now) which assumed readers had never heard of it and helpfully explained that it’s an anti-fascist song which is well-known due to its use in the WWII game Hearts of Iron IV. I saw a different article which attributed it (solely) to the television series Money Heist, the fourth season of which (says wikipedia) plays it during the credits.
How? I’ve never seen gamers reference it, like ever? They might think the remix is good but nobody seems to ever post it anywhere other than for political reasons. The most common place it shows up is antifascist protests or union strikes here in europe.
It’s in Hearts of Iron IV. I heard someone clock the game menu you can see barely in frame in that one picture of Robinson that was circulating. I haven’t played it so IDK.
The only place I’ve ever seen talk about the groypers attempting to use it was hexbear, their impact with it was non-existent. They would never successfully coopt this there is absolutely no chance the european left ever relinquishes a song so important here. The fascists in europe despise it, it boils their piss.
Feasibility of coopting something. You can’t do it if you can’t get a critical mass of your fash buds to do it too, and you can’t do it if you can’t get the other side to step back from it. If your fash friends feel visceral disgust from the song you’ve got a problem in getting enough of them together to coopt it, let alone when you’re trying to coopt something that’s played at literally every single leftist event. You may as well be trying to coopt the Internationale.
American leftists are the other side to them and Americans don’t have any near as much of an attachment to the song. Europeans might as well be on mars for groypers. I’m not saying that they have coopted, or even that they’ve tried to, my point is that Europeans are entirely irrelevant when talking about groypers.
I think you’d be surprised how many groypers are european nazis. These terminally online crowds are extremely international. And these online meme driven activities are highly reliant on getting the largest number of participants possible which relies on being nation-less, which in a sense white supremacy on the internet tries to be. They are the “white nation” in the online space and its what bolsters numbers as opposed to specific niche geographical groups of nationalists that hate each other.
I can’t speak to Bella Ciao being coopted by the right, I don’t think the shooter was a groyper, but I do think that speculating on it being used that way is plausible when it was being discussed a couple days ago. I base that on a parallel thing where I’ve seen a lot of far right people presumably in the US latching on to Irish rebel music. Either with conservative keyboard warriors leaving bellicose comments on youtube or with rightwing content creators using song clips in their videos. So there are lefty songs that get picked up by fash or just filter into the zeitgeist of apolitical audiences.
I base that on a parallel thing where I’ve seen a lot of far right people presumably in the US latching on to Irish rebel music.
I believe that these people who genuinely believe in their hearts that they are rebels are probably redeemable if they get the correct political education. They genuinely want to fight something that is getting them down but are misguided as to what it is. They find in this music that spirit of rebellion against the oppressor but they mislabel the oppressor because of their lack of political education.
Correct me if I’m wrong but most of these people are dirt poor rednecks.
I’m thinking specifically of boogaloo, libertarian, AnCap, anti-antifascist, etc. types. There is very much a vibe stateside among reactionaries that upholding state violence and resisting social progress is how they rebel against “the system.” So I’m specifically talking about people who are reactionaries first and then choose these tunes because of their meme status.
On a more general line, sure I agree there are a lot of working-poor proles that see themselves as having a sort of rebellious spirit who could be redirected with the correct political education.
I don’t really understand why leftists have been so desperate to pin it on groypers tbh. Like non aligned or even leftist assassins exist? That should be expected, no?
It is expected. I said on this very site a few years ago that as things move closer and closer towards revolutionary conditions you are going to see adventurism happen and there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it. It will be by extreme leftists. It will be by non-aligned people pushed to the edged. It will be by completely inscrutable people. The conditions will produce it.
All the organised left can do is prepare around it. There is absolutely nothing we can do to control it nor the conditions that produce it. Best we can do is convince some anarchists that blowing up dams, bridges and power stations is a bad idea and didn’t work last time it was tried by anarchists in europe. We will have zero impact on the people that are not politically educated beyond a general sentiment of “billionaires are bad” and “fascists are evil” and we can not do anything to soften that sentiment whatsoever. They will take that sentiment and some of them will run with it to the conclusion of carrying out attacks, it is what it is and it’s going to happen more and more the worse conditions get.
Furthermore, if the fascists crack down hard on it they will cause even more of it. The only thing that would turn it around is changing the root material conditions with social policy concessions. Cracking down with violence will generate even worse conditions that generate even more revolutionary conditions and thus even more random acts of violence.
100% could not agree more. With the decline in material conditions in the West and lack of political education/socialist movement, high availability of guns, and saturation of the individualist mindset, adventurism from leftists and non aligned folks is inevitable. It’s honestly somewhat surprising there hasn’t been more of it.
Because fash-on-fash violence is a common enough thing. Because chuds instantly gravitated to blaming trans people along with other minorities. Because anything not tacitly proving that this was all the work of some rightoid gone haywire means that we as leftists, trans people, poor people, BIPOC, will be retaliated against with extreme prejudice. All the chuds want is an excuse to let the bullets fly.
They don’t need this as an excuse. The bullets have been flying. Obviously most people here don’t think adventurism is productive, but in general and especially at that age, vaguely lib or left-sympathetic people have much less theory than hexbears. I just don’t think it’s helpful to grasp at straws if there’s reasonable evidence. I wouldn’t describe Robinson as a leftist based on what I’ve seen but you don’t have to be one to be angry about fascists.
I believe unfortunately we are past that point. Helping arm ourselves and our comrades, learning gun safety, and getting range time should be a priority especially for the most vulnerable among us.
This leaves out the Bella Ciao piece of evidence. Something that I can ONLY say would point to him either falling into far left circles or, as some others mentioned, the Groyper attempt to coopt the song.
I don’t think you can leave that out. It’s essential evidence.
There have been many covers of it in the last 15 years.
I read an article (I can’t find now) which assumed readers had never heard of it and helpfully explained that it’s an anti-fascist song which is well-known due to its use in the WWII game Hearts of Iron IV. I saw a different article which attributed it (solely) to the television series Money Heist, the fourth season of which (says wikipedia) plays it during the credits.
The Bella Ciao thing fits with gamer culture.
How? I’ve never seen gamers reference it, like ever? They might think the remix is good but nobody seems to ever post it anywhere other than for political reasons. The most common place it shows up is antifascist protests or union strikes here in europe.
It’s in Hearts of Iron IV. I heard someone clock the game menu you can see barely in frame in that one picture of Robinson that was circulating. I haven’t played it so IDK.
Isn’t that why it became a thing with groypers? Because it was an unlockable in a Far Cry game?
The only place I’ve ever seen talk about the groypers attempting to use it was hexbear, their impact with it was non-existent. They would never successfully coopt this there is absolutely no chance the european left ever relinquishes a song so important here. The fascists in europe despise it, it boils their piss.
The hearts of iron playlist with Bella ciao people are talking about had 30 saves on Spotify. I highly doubt it was seen by Robinson.
I don’t see why groypers would care at all how something is perceived in Europe.
Feasibility of coopting something. You can’t do it if you can’t get a critical mass of your fash buds to do it too, and you can’t do it if you can’t get the other side to step back from it. If your fash friends feel visceral disgust from the song you’ve got a problem in getting enough of them together to coopt it, let alone when you’re trying to coopt something that’s played at literally every single leftist event. You may as well be trying to coopt the Internationale.
American leftists are the other side to them and Americans don’t have any near as much of an attachment to the song. Europeans might as well be on mars for groypers. I’m not saying that they have coopted, or even that they’ve tried to, my point is that Europeans are entirely irrelevant when talking about groypers.
I think you’d be surprised how many groypers are european nazis. These terminally online crowds are extremely international. And these online meme driven activities are highly reliant on getting the largest number of participants possible which relies on being nation-less, which in a sense white supremacy on the internet tries to be. They are the “white nation” in the online space and its what bolsters numbers as opposed to specific niche geographical groups of nationalists that hate each other.
I can’t speak to Bella Ciao being coopted by the right, I don’t think the shooter was a groyper, but I do think that speculating on it being used that way is plausible when it was being discussed a couple days ago. I base that on a parallel thing where I’ve seen a lot of far right people presumably in the US latching on to Irish rebel music. Either with conservative keyboard warriors leaving bellicose comments on youtube or with rightwing content creators using song clips in their videos. So there are lefty songs that get picked up by fash or just filter into the zeitgeist of apolitical
audiences.
I believe that these people who genuinely believe in their hearts that they are rebels are probably redeemable if they get the correct political education. They genuinely want to fight something that is getting them down but are misguided as to what it is. They find in this music that spirit of rebellion against the oppressor but they mislabel the oppressor because of their lack of political education.
Correct me if I’m wrong but most of these people are dirt poor rednecks.
I’m thinking specifically of boogaloo, libertarian, AnCap, anti-antifascist, etc. types. There is very much a vibe stateside
among reactionaries that upholding state violence and resisting social progress is how they rebel against “the system.” So I’m specifically talking about people who are reactionaries first and then choose these tunes because of their meme status.
On a more general line, sure I agree there are a lot of working-poor proles that see themselves as having a sort of rebellious spirit who could be redirected with the correct political education.
I don’t really understand why leftists have been so desperate to pin it on groypers tbh. Like non aligned or even leftist assassins exist? That should be expected, no?
It is expected. I said on this very site a few years ago that as things move closer and closer towards revolutionary conditions you are going to see adventurism happen and there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it. It will be by extreme leftists. It will be by non-aligned people pushed to the edged. It will be by completely inscrutable people. The conditions will produce it.
All the organised left can do is prepare around it. There is absolutely nothing we can do to control it nor the conditions that produce it. Best we can do is convince some anarchists that blowing up dams, bridges and power stations is a bad idea and didn’t work last time it was tried by anarchists in europe. We will have zero impact on the people that are not politically educated beyond a general sentiment of “billionaires are bad” and “fascists are evil” and we can not do anything to soften that sentiment whatsoever. They will take that sentiment and some of them will run with it to the conclusion of carrying out attacks, it is what it is and it’s going to happen more and more the worse conditions get.
Furthermore, if the fascists crack down hard on it they will cause even more of it. The only thing that would turn it around is changing the root material conditions with social policy concessions. Cracking down with violence will generate even worse conditions that generate even more revolutionary conditions and thus even more random acts of violence.
100% could not agree more. With the decline in material conditions in the West and lack of political education/socialist movement, high availability of guns, and saturation of the individualist mindset, adventurism from leftists and non aligned folks is inevitable. It’s honestly somewhat surprising there hasn’t been more of it.
tbh, regardless of what the feds think, the American left doesn’t have the radicalism for this.
I don’t think adventurism is particularly radical, and you don’t really need radicalism to shoot someone, even for political reasons
Because fash-on-fash violence is a common enough thing. Because chuds instantly gravitated to blaming trans people along with other minorities. Because anything not tacitly proving that this was all the work of some rightoid gone haywire means that we as leftists, trans people, poor people, BIPOC, will be retaliated against with extreme prejudice. All the chuds want is an excuse to let the bullets fly.
They don’t need this as an excuse. The bullets have been flying. Obviously most people here don’t think adventurism is productive, but in general and especially at that age, vaguely lib or left-sympathetic people have much less theory than hexbears. I just don’t think it’s helpful to grasp at straws if there’s reasonable evidence. I wouldn’t describe Robinson as a leftist based on what I’ve seen but you don’t have to be one to be angry about fascists.
I believe unfortunately we are past that point. Helping arm ourselves and our comrades, learning gun safety, and getting range time should be a priority especially for the most vulnerable among us.